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Baroness Hazarika: Lord Speaker's Corner

30 January 2025

From politics to comedy to campaigning against anti-social behaviour, broadcaster Ayesha Hazarika is the latest guest on Lord Speaker’s Corner.

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Lord Speaker:

Baroness Hazarika, Ayesha, welcome to the Lord Speaker's podcast. I think you're the youngest Baroness, peer that I have interviewed. And as you said yourself in your maiden speech, you feel like a spring chicken here. So, why did you accept the invitation from Keir Starmer to come into the House of Lords?

Baroness Hazarika:

Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me on the podcast. I'm delighted to be the youngest person. I've just had a birthday, so-

Lord Speaker:

I can safely say you're under 50?

Baroness Hazarika:

Just. Literally just by a whisker. So, it's a great honour to be in your podcast, and I think what you're doing here is brilliant. I think shining a light on the work of the Lords is really important right now. So, I was really surprised when I got the call asking if I want to join the House of Lords. And I got the call, and the person said, "I'm calling on behalf of Keir Starmer. This is really serious. I've got something really serious I need to ask you. Are you by yourself? And I think you better sit down. And the first thing I thought was, "Oh my goodness, what have I been saying on my social media? Am I about to get cancelled, or am I about to get suspended from the Labour Party? Have I said something terrible?" I was racking my brains thinking, have I said something really inappropriate on Have I Got News for You or in my radio show, or in one of my comedy sets or online?

And then they said, the opportunity has come up for Keir Starmer to nominate a small number of people for the House of Lords, and he'd like to offer you a peerage. And I just burst into tears. First of all, I was like, "So, I'm not getting suspended from the Labour Party?" They were like, "No, you're not. Very much the opposite." And I was so overwhelmed, I just burst into tears. I really couldn't believe it. I really couldn't believe it, because if you're somebody like me from my background and you've loved politics your whole life and you've worked in politics and you've been steeped in politics, it's a real honour to be asked to join the House of Lords for the party that you have served and the party you love. Particularly someone from my background who was never ever... And told from a young age that politics was not for somebody like me from my background. So, it was a huge honour. Once I stopped sniffling, I was very happy. But I cried so much, my partner thought that one of my parents must have passed away. [laughter]

Lord Speaker:

Very good. You mentioned about the background that you came from, west of Scotland, Coatbridge. A very tribal background in terms of the communities. I have got the same type of background. And again, you mentioned in your speech about being a Muslim and either a Celtic or a Rangers Muslim about it, but that must have brought up the issue of identity in your community. And although your father had a prestigious position in the community as a GP, your identity must've been questioned at times in that area. Was it a struggle growing up, in some respects?

Baroness Hazarika:

I did have some moments. I'd say on the whole, I had a really positive experience. And growing up in Coatbridge really shaped me in a way that I'm really grateful for and really proud of. But as you've said, it is quite a tough community and it was not always the easiest of places. I think for many people growing up, there was quite a lot of sectarianism between the Catholic community and the Protestant community.

Lord Speaker:

Is it fair to say that Coatbridge is seen as a Catholic community, whereas Airdrie was seen largely as a Protestant community? Is that fair?

Baroness Hazarika:

Yes. Although in my dad's surgery we did have a mix of doctors to the point where the Catholic cleaner refused to go into the room of the Protestant doctor and vice versa. So, we had to have-

Lord Speaker:

So your dad got everybody!

Baroness Hazarika:

Yeah, we had it all going. [Laughter] It was like the United Nations. He was like the Kofi Annan of the surgery. And I think one of the things that I do remember when I was growing up when I was quite young, was that I did get called names when I was very young at school, like the P word and things like that. And I think I was too young to really understand what that meant, but I could feel that it was obviously, you're cognisant and you were sentient and that it's not being said in a particularly warm way. And I think I did have moments where people would shout out racial abuse on the street if I was walking home from school and things like that. There's not a huge amount you can do. You just have to get on with it. But it did shape me in the sense that that was an early experience of racism and racial abuse at quite a young age.

So, that was probably the negative side of it. But on the positive side of it, there was also a lot of love and friendship and kindness, and kinship from the local community, particularly through my dad's work as a doctor. The people around his surgery, his patients, the people that worked with him in the surgery became like family to us. In fact, one of his patients, a wonderful woman called Mrs Gamson, she became such good friends with my parents that she ended up babysitting me and my wee brother, and we used to call her Nana. She almost became like our de facto grandma, because our own grandmothers lived.... One of them is dead. They live very far away in India. We hardly ever got to really see them or know them, but this lady, Mrs Gamson, Nana, became like family to us. So, there was lots of really positive stories as well.

Lord Speaker:

But at that time, that identity element, the Catholic, the Protestant element, it was very much of an upbringing. I remember the late Andy Cameron, the comedian, he came from the Lanarkshire area. I don't know if you knew Andy, but he was a terrific comedian. Rangers supporting comedian. Did a lot of great interfaith work, but Andy made the point, one cabaret I was at with him, but he said, you know, Larkhall and he made the term, Larkhall. If you asked the way to the local hospital, in Larkhall they'll tell you to go to the local bus stop and sing Danny Boy [laughter[. So, it's good to turn these things into comedy, into jokes.

Baroness Hazarika:

Well, there's another funny thing, which is, when my dad was leaving India, he got two job offers. And obviously, he ended up in Lanarkshire, but the other job offer was in Los Angeles, in America. Also known as the Orange County, the OC. But of course the joke was we used to have so many Orange marches where we were in Lanarkshire, he did end up in his own version of the Orange County.

Lord Speaker:

But in a different context.

Baroness Hazarika:

But in a very different context.

Lord Speaker:

But things have improved now enormously, I think. And the point that you made in the different communities, you do find people who reach out to you. Absolutely. And that's your experience of it.

Baroness Hazarika:

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's really important that we call out discrimination, and particularly I would say with my values and the work I've done, it's very important, but I think it's important to call out the negative, but it's also really important to recognise the positive. You shouldn't be always constantly overly negative about society, because there are really great stories as well about integration and friendship and community.

Lord Speaker:

There actually is a negativity about society today, and it's a big issue, particularly for young people, the issue of mental health. And I was just reading in the Financial Times this morning that it's a global issue now. What message do you have for young people in this? How do they stay positive? How do they get to feel that they have a stake in society?

Baroness Hazarika:

It's a great question and it's something that I ponder a lot because I think it's really challenging to be a young person. Look, we're living in a very challenging age. I often think that in the 49 years that I've been on this planet, I've never felt so precarious about global politics, about the climate, about economic factors. There's so many difficult things going on right now. And I think society is in the middle of a very big mental health crisis. I think that's even worse for young people. I do think one thing though that has made things a lot worse for young people, certainly since my time of being young, is social media. I do think that technology can offer some really good things, but I think we have to be really clear-eyed and honest about some of the dangers that it does provide to adults, but particularly young adults, young people and children.

Let's take bullying for example. There's always been bullying at school, but you could often leave the bullying behind when you came home. Now because of our smartphones, you carry it around. In the palm of your hand is the world now, for good and for ill. I think a lot of young people are really pressured in terms of social status, anxiety, the normal things that young people grew up with, but it's made much worse. I think it's really damaging in terms of how children are viewing sexuality at the moment, in terms of pornography, about children becoming sexualized at much earlier age. I think children, both boys and girls are being exposed to violent pornography a lot earlier in life. I think that's distorting what is a good, healthy, normal relationship. I think there's a lot of being seduced into weird parts of the internet where you think you're finding friendship, but actually you're being radicalised.

So, I think there is a lot for young people going on with social media. Add to that, the reality of the financial pressures that a lot of young people... It is now factually true that the metrics are tougher for young people. Just trying to do the right thing, leave school, get a job, go to university or college or get a good trade, being able to get on the housing ladder, have a family, support yourselves. All of these things, which it wasn't like a walk in the park for our generation, but it was achievable for the majority of us. That now feels really difficult for young people.

Also, I think there's a cauldron of different things, which is putting a lot of pressure on young people. My advice to young people is to really think about looking after your mental health. Yes, technology is great in many ways, but do not try to become addicted to it. Be aware of real life as opposed to just this black mirror in the palm of your hand, to make your way in the world to... Because I think the irony about the phone and social media is, you think there's this big world in the palm of your hand, and there is to a certain extent, but it sometimes limits you from actually getting out into the real world, into your community, having conversations with people, doing things like living your life in a more granular real way. So, I think that would be my advice.

And also, I think, going back to what we were talking about earlier, it is very easy to feel very anxious at the moment. I totally get that, and I wouldn't be overly harsh. I have sleepless nights where I'm thinking about the state of everything. It is an anxious time, but try not to become a prisoner of your anxiety. There are lots of good things in the world as well. There's lots of great things to be involved in. And in small ways, you can make a change and you will feel better about yourself if you do get out there and try and participate in the world instead of being frightened and terrified of the world.

But it is a difficult time to be a young person. Look, we sometimes joke about the snowflake generation, and I'm a comedian, I'll make jokes about people like that as well. And sometimes my younger colleagues at work will have a... I'll take the mick out of them. The other day, I was trying to explain who Christopher Biggins was to... Which is a real leveller if you're getting old in the office. But on the whole, I do think young people are trying their best in quite difficult circumstances.

Lord Speaker:

I'll come back to that later on, because it's an important point. But you studied journalism rather than law.

Baroness Hazarika:

I started doing law and then-

Lord Speaker:

Exactly.

Baroness Hazarika:

... I switched to journalism.

Lord Speaker:

And why did you do journalism?

Baroness Hazarika:

Because I just, in my heart of hearts, just didn't want to become a solicitor. My parents were classic Asian mum and dads where they were like, "You can be anything in the world, anything provide it's a doctor, lawyer or an accountant." They're the three things. So I couldn't count. I wasn't very good at maths. I didn't like blood, so I was like, "Fine, I'll do law." That's basically why I ended up doing law. And then I did three years at Hull University and I was just like, there's no way I want to go to the College of Law to get my diploma. So, I had a massive row with my parents who were very disappointed. They're very disappointed that I'm not a doctor, basically and that I've not married a doctor. They're very happy I'm in the House of Lords. That's the only thing that's made up for that. So, Keir Starmer, thank you very much for that.

Although, because Rishi Sunak became Prime Minister, my mum will still say, "Rishi, he became Prime Minister." I'm like, "Okay, mum. I can't actually become Prime Minister now."

Lord Speaker:

You then turned to comedy.

Baroness Hazarika:

Oh, yes.

Lord Speaker:

You went to night school or you went to a course in comedy?

Baroness Hazarika:

I did. I did a course-

Lord Speaker:

It does seem quite a departure. And I thought you were a rather sober-state person, obviously.

Baroness Hazarika:

It's all been a ruse. It's all a ruse, John! So, I was working as a... So, I did this postgraduate journalism diploma in journalism and politics, broadcast journalism and politics, and then I ended up getting a job in the government press office service, the government information and communication service.

There's actually a Coatbridge connection here as well, because I literally had one day in the press office as an admin girl. They were doing an office move, because it was this time when the jobs market wasn't that great. And at the end of the day, I was busy chatting away to everybody, making everyone cups of tea, being as friendly as I could to everybody. And the guy who was the head of the press office at the end of the day said, "Your accent is Scottish. Where are you from?" And I said, "Oh, you'll never know. It's a small town outside Glasgow, called Coatbridge." He's like, "No way." Turned out he was from Coatbridge. And I'm not saying Coatbridge is a small place, but it turns out that the love of his life is the daughter of my piano teacher. So, he ended up basically saying, "Oh, you can come back tomorrow. We'll book you in for tomorrow and the next day and the next day." And then that's basically one of the routes that I ended up... So, the great Coatbridge connection continues.

So, I became a government press officer, which I absolutely loved. It was such an interesting job working in these different government departments. I started off at the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. I then went to the Home Office at a really interesting time. In fact, one of the big things I worked on was the Macpherson inquiry into the way the Metropolitan Police had handled the murder of Stephen Lawrence. And then, I moved to the Department of Trade and Industry, and spent many years there. But I just felt like something was missing in my life, because it was quite serious. It's important, serious, grown up work. And I just felt like life was slightly slipping away from me.

And I remember going out with a friend of mine, and we had a few wines and we were like, "Okay, let's do a bucket list. If you could do anything you wanted, what would it be?" And hers was to be a cabaret singer. And mine was to be a stand-up comedian. And the next day as we were nursing our hangover at work, she came over with a copy of the Evening Standard. She's like, "You're not going to believe it, they're advertising an evening course in stand-up comedy. This is a sign. You have to do it." And I did it, and that's how I got into stand-up comedy.

Lord Speaker:

Yeah. Have you brought your sense of humour into politics. You think it's very important in politics to laugh at yourself?

Baroness Hazarika:

Oh, absolutely. In fact, I think having a very dark sense of humour is a great coping mechanism in politics. Because if you can't see the absurdity in politics and you can't see the black humour in politics. And often there's a lot of gallows humour. Because often in politics you're dealing with a series of things that go wrong rather than a series of things that go right. So, I think having some self-awareness, being able to take the mickey out of yourself before the other side do. And I felt really lucky because with some of my work, particularly doing work on Prime Minister's Questions and writing speeches for political leaders, I was able to bring in some of my humour vicariously through other-

Lord Speaker:

Yeah, you did a book in that, didn't you? Punch and Judy Politics. Yeah.

Baroness Hazarika:

I did.

Lord Speaker:

Give us an insight into that, because you worked for Harriet Harman, the Pink Bus, and then you were chief of staff to Ed Miliband, preparing him for Prime Minister's Questions. People just look at Prime Minister's Questions, because largely, it's nothing other than a Punch and Judy show. But there's a more serious purpose to that behind the scenes, isn't there? So, give us an idea about the behind the scenes element, because that'll be fascinating for people.

Baroness Hazarika:

So, I think Prime Minister's Questions gets a very bad rap, because it does often become quite Punch and Judy, but I think it's a really important function of our democracy, and it's quite a unique thing to our democracy. There are not many democracies around the world where the principal politician in the land is called to the same spot week in, week out, and faces questions on any topic from any Member of Parliament across the country. Sometimes they get an inkling of what the question's going to be, but often the questions come out of nowhere. So it's an important mechanism of accountability. And also, now I know many people might be shouting at the podcast now going, "I know, but they never answer the question." But the principle is there.

I also think that it's an important, I think, test for the Prime Minister and for the leader of the opposition, because ultimately politics is the art of communication. And politics is ultimately about a debate and about debating big ideas, competing ideas. And yes, we live in an age of social media and lots of fancy advertising and stuff, but what I think is really important about PMQs, is there's a purity to it. All of that is stripped away at Prime Minister's Questions. And what it is, is basically one man or woman making the best intellectual, moral, intellectual political argument with their brain, their head, their heart, their voice, their communication skills, their oratory skills. And I think that is really important.

And I think from a leadership point of view, whether you're the Prime Minister or the leader of the opposition, it's important in terms of sending a message out to the public because the press gallery's full and the media cover it a lot. It's often the most covered point of the week in Parliament. But you're also sending an important signal to your own team as well, saying, "Out of all of you, I am making the best case and this is why I'm the leader."

So even though, I know a lot of people don't like it, I think it's a really important thing. And I remember when I interviewed William Hague for our book, and he said, "Ask yourself this question. Would our democracy be better if PMQs was very well-behaved where it was pin drop silence, and we just listened to our political leaders with a deference?" And the answer to that is, no. Yes, it is a bit messy and sometimes it descends into farm yard animal noises and all this kind of thing. But I think it is quite unique in our democracy. And I think our democracy would be poorer if we didn't have PMQs. But I would like to see people raise their game. I would like to see the level of debate be elevated more.

Lord Speaker:

In terms of communication. The communication world is so different now, particularly from the time I was in the House of Commons. And I remember it was said that Neil Kinnock became leader of the Labour Party, because he was good on telly, a great communicator. There's a case for saying now that doesn't apply. It's a different age we're in. What are the qualities a leader of government or opposition has to have today to get to the root of society's issues and engage with people?

Baroness Hazarika:

Gosh, that is a $64 million question, isn't it? I still think being telegenic is really important, and we are moving away from an era where everybody would watch the evening news and that's how they would get their... Social media is, we've discussed social media a lot in this conversation, social media is a really important way of communicating, but the concept is the same. I suppose whether you say someone is telegenic or whether they work on social media, I think you do have to have somebody who can connect with ordinary people, whether that is charisma, whether that is just being a very eloquent, articulate communicator. I think there's something about connection, which is really important. And also, it's quite difficult to fake that connection. I think you have to have just quite a natural raw feel for it. Yes, you can be coached and you can prepare and you can do all the... You can get a nice suit and all that sort of thing, but I think you either have that ability to emote and empathise with people and speak their language.

So, I think that is a really important point. But that's not the only thing you need. I think, to be a good leader, particularly in this day and age... Well, this is what I would hope. I think many people feel this probably hasn't happened of late, because we've had so many different leaders recently. I think what the public are looking for is somebody that can connect with them, but somebody who can also get things done. Because I think what people are really fed up with is people saying, "I'm promising you the moon on a stick," and delivering you nothing but excuses. So, I would say those are the two things that really matter.

But what I find fascinating is the world in which we live at the moment, when you're looking particularly around geopolitics, which is wild at the moment. We're not in an age where people want... People do want a bit of character and they do want, there's this phrase at the moment, the strong man... Which is quite, as somebody who's a feminist, and I would like to see more women in politics, that's quite a gendered thing. But there's clearly a desire right now for quite strong... You look at somebody like, I don't share Trump's politics at all, but even I could tell he was going to win on the run-up to the election, because he's such a strong character. He clearly believes what he says, and he makes people believe in what he's saying. Whether or not he can make any of this stuff happen remains to be seen.

But I think we are living in an age where people do expect our politicians, they want them to feel authentic to them. And that is not about somebody, oh, I can't connect with this person because they're really rich, or I can't connect with this person because they're from a different background. It's something more ephemeral that I think we used to say, "Oh, this person's from this class, so they must connect with this class of people." That's not the case anymore. People are prepared to look at anybody, but they've got to feel that that person's authentic and they've got real strength to them.

Lord Speaker:

As I was sitting in the rules yesterday, observing the questions, you are fortunate to have question number one on antisocial behaviour and shoplifting. And actually, felt that that got to the issue that you're talking about just now, because those were the issues that people were responding to. And that debate in the house from all sides, spoke to that issue. Would you agree that that's the type of stuff we need to talk about?

Baroness Hazarika:

Oh, a 100%. I do feel that one of the reasons why I would say-

Lord Speaker:

Why did you put that question down?

Baroness Hazarika:

Because I see it in my everyday life. So, where I live at the moment in Lambeth, in South London, there is so much shoplifting going on. There is so much antisocial behaviour. In fact, there was a really excellent debate a couple of weeks ago in the Lords... Lord Hannett did a debate on retail crime. And I put my name down to speak at that and I was thinking, "Oh, I must prepare my speech." And I literally went out to get some messages from the local co-op shop and a man walked in, barged past the security guard, went up to the alcohol aisle and just started helping himself to loads of bottles. The security guy tried to challenge him. He got really violent with the security guard, threatened everybody else in the shop and just walked out. And it was such a shocking moment, everybody was really shaken up.

And I asked the security guy, "Are you okay?" And he said, "This happens all the time. I fear for my safety. I fear for the customers. Sometimes there are mums in with their young kids shopping." He was like, "Someone is going to get hurt." And he said, "You know what the worst thing is? This guy comes in pretty much every day, sometimes twice a day, and just helps himself. And there's CCTV and everybody knows who he is and nobody does anything." So, that is why I asked that question, John, because that story is not... That is happening every day on an hourly basis. And I think for a lot of ordinary people when they're going out to do their shopping, if you're working in a shop, if you've got a small business like that, you're just seeing people coming in and filling their boots. It feels like there's a lawlessness. It does feel like it's a bit of a wild west out there. And how can you be teaching our kids that there are rules, and then they're seeing people behave like this?

So, that is one of the reasons why I raised it, and I feel really passionately about it. And I feel like when we have a platform here in the Lords, yes, it's really important to talk about very intellectual issues. And there's a lot of that and that is brilliant, but it's also really important to raise the real life issues that everyday people are talking about and dealing with.

Lord Speaker:

Okay. But the average constituent would say to you, what are you going to do about it? How do you promote a solution to this issue? How do you use your voice to further that agenda?

Baroness Hazarika:

Well, I think -

Lord Speaker:

I know it's a hard question.

Baroness Hazarika:

No, it's a fair question. I think for people in my position, I will try and use whatever platform I have to raise these issues. So on my Times Radio show, I'd cover these issues a lot. I pressed the police minister in the House of Lords, Lord Hanson, yesterday saying, will he ensure that the government and the police are doing more to focus on what is actually a small group of hardened criminals, doing probably the lion's share of this kind of crime? And will they use things like technology, like facial recognition technology and things.

So, we can use our position here to press government ministers and to press the government. And I can use the other platforms I have to raise these issues and get people on. But ultimately, it will come down to... And as you say, it's not easy. It'll come down to government ministers, it'll come down to the police, it comes down to resourcing of the police. It comes down to local authorities. But it also, there's the criminal justice side of it, which I think is really important. I do think we shouldn't have a softy-softy approach.

I don't like calling this low level crime, because I don't think it's low level crime. I really don't. But on the other hand, there's other social things like addiction, homelessness, prostitution, mental health issues. So, you've got to make sure that that side comes in... So, it's a joined up approach. But I think this stuff is not easy, but the more we talk about it and the more we press government ministers, that puts the pressure on them to keep on keeping this a priority.

Lord Speaker:

And community policing, I feel that that has diminished over the years. I was, when I was a youngster, chair of the co-op board for a while, and we had a great chief executive. And he used to come along with reports and tell us, in one shoplifting report, in fact quite a few shoplifting reports said we've had fridges stolen. I couldn't understand how someone stole a fridge and get out it of the shop without anybody seeing it, but maybe you've got an answer to me for that.

Baroness Hazarika:

I love that [laughter].

Lord Speaker:

But at that time, we had traffic wardens there, we had police on the streets. And if we don't have that presence, then I don't think that we can tackle it. Is that fair enough?

Baroness Hazarika:

I totally agree with you. And I've done a lot of work with my local community in Lambeth and in the Brixton area, and we've had big community meetings about this with the police and the local authorities. And it's so interesting, the local residents from every different background, the one thing they say is, "We want to see more police. We want to see more police." And also they want to see police that they recognise, who know the area. Because I think back in the day when there were more police and you had more established neighbourhood police, they knew the families, they knew the communities, they knew the estates, they knew the shopkeepers. So, if the shopkeeper said, "Look, this guy's come in and is causing trouble," they often knew who his family was and all, but we're losing that link. We're losing a lot of that community link.

And I think on the one hand, we're careering ahead with all this new technology and the world is all apps and very exciting developments. But I think what a lot of people want is a return to, I don't want to use the word 'old-fashioned', because that is a bit pejorative, but some kind of common sense, like traditional things that held up our communities as well. You can have all the advancing technology and innovation, that is really important. And if we want to do better in our public services, they do need reform, and technology will be a big part of that. But I think what a lot of people are crying out for is common sense, like human beings being there again, knowing people like the police, like your family doctor. There's some basics in society that I still think we need.

Lord Speaker:

In other words, I think you made the point with your Times Radio shows that you're encouraging conversation rather than confrontation and that empathetic element in conversation, listening to people. Is that what you're getting at here?

Baroness Hazarika:

Yeah, absolutely. And I think we've got to talk about all of these things. And we've also got to, we live in a very polarised age in politics, which everything has become very tribal. And unless we actually sit down and have conversations with people who we have different views from, wisdom, all the solutions don't lie in one political party. All the answers don't lie in one way of thinking. There's lots of contributions to be made across the piece, whether it's crime and justice, whether it's tackling social care.

So, without wanting to be all kumbaya about it, because obviously I understand that the party lines, I do think that one of the things I love doing on my radio show is just getting people from all different walks of life, all different political backgrounds on to talk about, rather than just do the, "Ya, boo," and slagging each other off. There's a space for that, but actually a lot of people are more interested in having a more honest, sometimes a reflective conversation saying, this is what we got wrong. Sometimes some of the most interesting conversations I've had are with people who've recently lost their seats who are saying, "Actually looking back, I think we did get this wrong and I wish we'd done this." Hindsight is a wonderful thing. So, I just think by opening up more of these conversations about solutions, that gives us a better chance of getting to the solutions, because we've got big problems, John, facing us. And we aren't going to solve them unless we do have some element of people coming together.

Lord Speaker:

You say about people losing their seat. I will remember when I stood down in 2010, there was a young, fresh-faced Ayesha Hazarika contacting me, and applied for-

Baroness Hazarika:

You're saying I'm not fresh-faced now?

Lord Speaker:

You're really fresh-faced - you're a spring chicken still [laughter]. But you were a great candidate, and I was told that. I happened to be in Singapore at that time, so I couldn't vote for you.

Baroness Hazarika:

Would you have voted for me?

Lord Speaker:

I am neutral now. But you never pursued that. Why didn't you pursue becoming an MP?

Baroness Hazarika:

So, I tried very hard to get selected in your old seat West Dunbartonshire, and then I did actually try East Dunbartonshire.

Lord Speaker:

You come in too late, that was a problem.

Baroness Hazarika:

I know, I went to everything that had Dunbartonshire on it, if there was a North Dunbartonshire. I also, I tried East Lothian, and then I think I tried a number of times and I felt like I came quite close, but I found it, it knocked the wind out of my sails a bit, if I'm really honest. Because it wasn't like I hadn't tried, I tried many times. And you know that phrase, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and getting the same results. So I thought, the Labour Party, as much as I love it, does not want me to be a candidate.

Now, I think maybe that would've changed if I had... But I enjoyed some of it, but I'll be honest, some of it was quite a bruising experience. And also, I didn't feel I had any real support. So, I was doing it all from a standing start by myself with my dad driving me round, or an old school friend driving me around. And I think my mistake was, I didn't have those big... That infrastructure. I didn't have a big union backing me or I didn't have a... So, I think I just felt like I tried really hard and it just wasn't meant to be.

Lord Speaker:

But you went on to career, it was different. And you mentioned about politics, quite a lot of politics is drudgery and complex, and your time as a SpAd. I would like you to give us an idea of that, because there's a view that SpAds are too powerful. They're the gatekeeper to ministers, and there is a negativity in that, in between the Members of Parliament, even the Cabinet members and the Civil Service. And at times, hard to get access to Downing Street. Is that a fair analysis or is there a real need for SpAds?

Baroness Hazarika:

So, I think that is true of, I think, a small number of SpAds. I think we do need special advisors, and they are an important support system for the Secretary of State, because it's very lonely coming into a big department. And we've just had lots of, our conversation has been, how do you actually get things done? And when you're trying to get things done in a huge department with hundreds, sometimes thousands of people, you need people who are your people around you to be part of your team, to go out and help you achieve that. So, I think special advisors can be a really important practical bridge between the minister and the civil servants. And I think good special advisors can be like the linchpin of making that and good special advisors can facilitate the will of the minister and the will of Downing Street to actually work with the civil servants through the private office to make that happen. So, I think they have a very important function.

But I think what is also true is that quite a lot of power, and this has happened over many decades, quite a small amount of power has become concentrated in the hands of a small number of special advisors in Downing Street. Sometimes the Treasury. Who have become so powerful that they are the real power behind the throne and they actually have way more power and influence than many cabinet ministers. And I think it is right to question, is that the right thing? Because these people are not elected. They're not the people who have to go up on the Today programme. They're not the people who are facing constituents at elections. They often don't have to ever really explain their decisions, and their decisions can have a profound effect on what happens in this country. Just look at somebody like Dominic Cummings for example, in terms of the effect that he had on this country.

So, I think there's a really important role for special advisors, but I do think there should also be a focus on how much power special advisors have and also training special advisors. There's a lot of pressure on special advisors when they come in. Often many of them haven't had a huge amount of experience. I think they need to have better training, they need to be supported. I think there's also a case for bringing in special advisors who maybe have a bit more expertise in that particular discipline to try and help the delivery of policy. So, I would say special advisors are incredibly important. In fact, they're so important. They need a bit more attention and support to make them perform better, but they also, like every other bit of power, they need guardrails.

Lord Speaker:

I had an interview with Lord Sedwill, former Cabinet Secretary, and he made the point about the Civil Service liking strong ministers. And acknowledged that there was a difference in view naturally because it was a politician with a real political view on issues, and the civil servants with their views for the institution and the policy in bridging them. So, I suppose special advisors would be crucial in that area.

Baroness Hazarika:

Definitely. And I had a lot-

Lord Speaker:

Give me an example of a typical role for a special advisor.

Baroness Hazarika:

Definitely. I remember when I was working for Harriet Harman, now and Baroness Harman, and we were working on the Equality Bill, which became the Equality Act 2010. That was a big beast of a piece of legislation. It was a consolidating exercise. But she was also very clear that she wanted to strengthen the Equality Act, which was absolutely the right thing to do. But we found that there was a lot of internal opposition. Not because people were bad people, but it was like, this is 'minister, this is too difficult to do. We've already got so much on our plate. This is already a very big unwieldy bill. We'll have to work cross government. We'll have to get the permission from the Treasury on this. It's not just your decision. We'll have to work with the Business Department, the DWP, the Health Department.' And there was quite a lot of 'computer says no.'

And that is a very good example of where Harriet Harman, the other ministers at the time, but myself as the lead special advisor, really did spend a huge amount of time really working with the civil servants, persuading them of why this was so important and saying, "Look, if we don't strengthen this bill and if we don't get these additional things, we're going to miss out on a really big opportunity to do some really good work here. Work that you'll feel really proud to be associated with." And we try to, instead of just telling them off or having conflict, we try to understand why they were resistant. And it came to pass that the reason why they were resistant is that they were worried that they were just going to get blocked from other departments. So we said to them, "Look, we'll help you so that you're not just going in and doing battle the whole time. We will completely put our shoulder to the wheel."

So, I will spend a huge amount of my time lobbying the special advisors who are my opposite numbers in Downing Street, in the Treasury, in the Business Department, in DWP. Harriet and the other ministers will spend a huge amount of their own personal time lobbying different ministers. Harriet took it right to Gordon Brown, who was then the Prime Minister.

So, I think by making us all feel like we were part of this team and we were questing for something that was really important, the resistance fell away. And in the end, we did get this brilliant piece of legislation, which did much more than consolidate. It really strengthened the law. It's a really enduring piece of legislation that I and many others are really proud of. And to this day, I'm still in touch with those civil servants. We became a great team. And they say to me, 'that piece of legislation helped me then get a really good promotion in the next job I did. And I'm really proud of that piece of legislation.'

So, I think there is a way of bringing people together. If you bring people, if you bring the civil servants with you, yes, you can always have conflict. There will always be a bit of 'Yes Minister' pushing back on the Civil Service, pushing back on you. But you as a skilled special advisor and as a good minister should find ways to persuade and bring people with you.

Lord Speaker:

You mentioned about the issue of technology and skills and the need for more expertise there, but what do politicians need to do to ensure that we reach out to different parts of the country? We have good devolution for Scotland and Wales, but we need to take that much further. And I've always had the view, particularly fostered with the fact there'd been a constituency MP near Glasgow that I know better than the people in the national institutions, because I live in the community and understand it. So, how can we devolve decision making, and accountability and transparency at the same time? What's your views as to the way forward there?

Baroness Hazarika:

I think that's a really important thing that we have to do. We have a very over-centralised way of making decisions and doing government. And I have a podcast that I do, called The Power Test with a really smart guy-

Lord Speaker:

Sam Freedman.

Baroness Hazarika:

... called Sam Freedman.

Lord Speaker:

Yeah, I listen to it.

Baroness Hazarika:

Oh, thank you very much. And he and I discuss this a lot. We discuss-

Lord Speaker:

He wrote a great book as well.

Baroness Hazarika:

Yeah, Failed State. And it's all about how to make Whitehall better and devolve proper power in decision making. And I think this is really important. And the government has been doing a lot of thinking about this, and we already are starting to see some changes. One of the very positive developments I think in, I suppose local government architecture is the creation of these regional mayors, which I think are a really good addition to politics. But they do have to be given more power and more ability, because just as you say, as a constituency MP you know your area best. These mayors have got a very good idea about, they've got a good bird's eye view of what's happening in their areas.

So, I think Whitehall has got to be prepared to devolve more. But, this is a big but though, I don't think Whitehall... I don't think you should... And this is an argument I have with Sam Freedman a lot. I don't think Westminster and ministers can't just wash their hands of decisions and just say, "Right, off to the regions to solve this." I think they have to basically let the expertise come from the regions, but they have to have an oversight over those things as well, because one-

Lord Speaker:

There was accountability.

Baroness Hazarika:

Absolutely. Because I think sometimes... ordinary people don't care about devolution. I did a conference recently about this, and there was a lot of chat about mayors and devolution, and how you move power away from Whitehall. And I made the point at the end of the discussion that I felt it was a really interesting discussion, but I felt we were getting way too nerdy about it. We were all getting very excited about graphs and flow charts, and organograms. But I'm seeing at the end of the day, your average man or woman on the street, going right back to our shoplifting story. They don't care what the power structure is. They just want that not to happen again. They want a police officer to come round to their house if they've burgled. They'd ideally like to not be burgled for the third time this year. So, all of that devolution stuff is important, but devolution is not an end in itself. It is a means to an end, and that end is better outcomes for just ordinary people.

Lord Speaker:

Good. Your comedy act and sense of humour, is sense of humour important in politics? And also, what role does culture play in politics?

Baroness Hazarika:

Two great questions. I think a sense of humour is so important in politics. I think the worst politics is when people are humourless and po-faced, and they can't take a joke and they can't make a joke about someone else, and they can't make a joke about themselves.

Lord Speaker:

When I was MP at the beginning, I felt I had to know everything and I never owned up. And the most joyous period for me was just before I stood down when people would come at my constituency saying they asked me something. And I said, "I don't know." [Laughter]

Baroness Hazarika:

Did you feel that was really liberating?

Lord Speaker:

That was liberating. But the point is, there's lots we don't know and maybe we're a bit too proud to have that at times.

Baroness Hazarika:

Yeah, definitely. And I think as well, you're talking about the culture of politics. I do think there's a great... Politics is still, as Tony Blair said, in his final time at the despatch box, is the pursuit of noble intentions. And of course, there is a lot of skullduggery with it, and it should be the pursuit of noble intentions. And I do believe that people from all different political parties come into politics for the right reasons. But we also have to be honest, John, our collective reputation is in the toilet right now.

Lord Speaker:

Absolutely.

Baroness Hazarika:

Politics and trust in politics has never been lower. So, we do have to think about that. We've got to think about how we conduct ourselves. Sometimes I think politicians can really come across as quite arrogant which is, 'I do know it all, and-

Lord Speaker:

Absolutely.

Baroness Hazarika:

... I can do no wrong and I've never done anything wrong.' And sometimes a wee bit of humility can go a long way. A bit of humour and humility, I think, can go a long way in politics.

Lord Speaker:

Absolutely. And how will you use your position, this elevated position that you now have in the House of Lords?

Baroness Hazarika:

I really hope to do some good and to use it as a platform to talk about the issues that we've been discussing today and to talk about the issues that I know my listeners from my radio show really care about. And also, John, one of the... And it's a great privilege and blessing for me, is that a lot of people see me on the telly or they hear me on the radio talking about politics. And they clearly think I'm quite approachable, because people stop me all the time on the street, when I'm on the trains or buses, or whatever, and want to have a chat. And I love those conversations with people.

And often people are just raising really... And they're like, "Why are people not talking about this?" And I think they're the things that I would like to use this as a platform. I've taken parts in debates on domestic violence. I've done a number of debates on shoplifting, retail crime. I'm trying to get a debate raised about the situation for child maintenance service, because I know a lot of women have got in contact with me, and they're single mums, they're really struggling. There's so many things that are not working in society right now. And I think, I'd like to be able to use my platform here to give a voice to some of those issues and shine a bit of a light on those issues.

Lord Speaker:

Ayesha, it's been a real pleasure to talk to you and great to get the feel of how you're going to approach the House of Lords, and the need to have results and engage in conversation rather than confrontation. So, thank you very much. It's been a privilege for me.

Baroness Hazarika:

And me. I've so enjoyed our chat. Thank you.

 

In this episode

Baroness Hazarika grew up in Coatbridge, Scotland and is the first person of Indian Assamese heritage to join the House of Lords. She rose to become a senior adviser to Labour figures including Harriet Harman and Ed Miliband, playing a crucial role preparing them for PMQs:

‘I think Prime Minister's Questions gets a very bad rap, because it does often become quite Punch and Judy, but I think it's a really important function of our democracy. There are not many democracies around the world where the principal politician in the land is called to the same spot week in, week out, and faces questions on any topic from any Member of Parliament across the country.’

In this episode, Baroness Hazarika talks about her unlikely career path from politics to stand-up comedy and broadcasting, and back to politics. She also explains to Lord McFall how she will use her new political platform to campaign against anti-social behaviour and crime:

‘I don't like calling this low-level crime, because I don't think it's low-level crime. But I think this stuff is not easy, but the more we talk about it and the more we press government ministers, that puts the pressure on them to keep on keeping this a priority.’

Finally, Baroness Hazarika tells Lord McFall about receiving the phone call to offer her a place in the Lords, explaining ‘I really couldn't believe it, because if you're somebody like me from my background and you've loved politics your whole life, it's a real honour to be asked to join the House of Lords for the party that you have served and the party you love.’

She shares that this wasn’t the first thought that went through her head though, saying ‘The person said, “I'm calling on behalf of Keir Starmer. This is really serious. Are you by yourself? I think you better sit down.” And the first thing I thought was, "Oh my goodness, what have I been saying on my social media? Am I about to get cancelled, or am I about to get suspended from the Labour Party? Have I said something terrible?’

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Transcript

Lord Speaker:

Baroness Hazarika, Ayesha, welcome to the Lord Speaker's podcast. I think you're the youngest Baroness, peer that I have interviewed. And as you said yourself in your maiden speech, you feel like a spring chicken here. So, why did you accept the invitation from Keir Starmer to come into the House of Lords?

Baroness Hazarika:

Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me on the podcast. I'm delighted to be the youngest person. I've just had a birthday, so-

Lord Speaker:

I can safely say you're under 50?

Baroness Hazarika:

Just. Literally just by a whisker. So, it's a great honour to be in your podcast, and I think what you're doing here is brilliant. I think shining a light on the work of the Lords is really important right now. So, I was really surprised when I got the call asking if I want to join the House of Lords. And I got the call, and the person said, "I'm calling on behalf of Keir Starmer. This is really serious. I've got something really serious I need to ask you. Are you by yourself? And I think you better sit down. And the first thing I thought was, "Oh my goodness, what have I been saying on my social media? Am I about to get cancelled, or am I about to get suspended from the Labour Party? Have I said something terrible?" I was racking my brains thinking, have I said something really inappropriate on Have I Got News for You or in my radio show, or in one of my comedy sets or online?

And then they said, the opportunity has come up for Keir Starmer to nominate a small number of people for the House of Lords, and he'd like to offer you a peerage. And I just burst into tears. First of all, I was like, "So, I'm not getting suspended from the Labour Party?" They were like, "No, you're not. Very much the opposite." And I was so overwhelmed, I just burst into tears. I really couldn't believe it. I really couldn't believe it, because if you're somebody like me from my background and you've loved politics your whole life and you've worked in politics and you've been steeped in politics, it's a real honour to be asked to join the House of Lords for the party that you have served and the party you love. Particularly someone from my background who was never ever... And told from a young age that politics was not for somebody like me from my background. So, it was a huge honour. Once I stopped sniffling, I was very happy. But I cried so much, my partner thought that one of my parents must have passed away. [laughter]

Lord Speaker:

Very good. You mentioned about the background that you came from, west of Scotland, Coatbridge. A very tribal background in terms of the communities. I have got the same type of background. And again, you mentioned in your speech about being a Muslim and either a Celtic or a Rangers Muslim about it, but that must have brought up the issue of identity in your community. And although your father had a prestigious position in the community as a GP, your identity must've been questioned at times in that area. Was it a struggle growing up, in some respects?

Baroness Hazarika:

I did have some moments. I'd say on the whole, I had a really positive experience. And growing up in Coatbridge really shaped me in a way that I'm really grateful for and really proud of. But as you've said, it is quite a tough community and it was not always the easiest of places. I think for many people growing up, there was quite a lot of sectarianism between the Catholic community and the Protestant community.

Lord Speaker:

Is it fair to say that Coatbridge is seen as a Catholic community, whereas Airdrie was seen largely as a Protestant community? Is that fair?

Baroness Hazarika:

Yes. Although in my dad's surgery we did have a mix of doctors to the point where the Catholic cleaner refused to go into the room of the Protestant doctor and vice versa. So, we had to have-

Lord Speaker:

So your dad got everybody!

Baroness Hazarika:

Yeah, we had it all going. [Laughter] It was like the United Nations. He was like the Kofi Annan of the surgery. And I think one of the things that I do remember when I was growing up when I was quite young, was that I did get called names when I was very young at school, like the P word and things like that. And I think I was too young to really understand what that meant, but I could feel that it was obviously, you're cognisant and you were sentient and that it's not being said in a particularly warm way. And I think I did have moments where people would shout out racial abuse on the street if I was walking home from school and things like that. There's not a huge amount you can do. You just have to get on with it. But it did shape me in the sense that that was an early experience of racism and racial abuse at quite a young age.

So, that was probably the negative side of it. But on the positive side of it, there was also a lot of love and friendship and kindness, and kinship from the local community, particularly through my dad's work as a doctor. The people around his surgery, his patients, the people that worked with him in the surgery became like family to us. In fact, one of his patients, a wonderful woman called Mrs Gamson, she became such good friends with my parents that she ended up babysitting me and my wee brother, and we used to call her Nana. She almost became like our de facto grandma, because our own grandmothers lived.... One of them is dead. They live very far away in India. We hardly ever got to really see them or know them, but this lady, Mrs Gamson, Nana, became like family to us. So, there was lots of really positive stories as well.

Lord Speaker:

But at that time, that identity element, the Catholic, the Protestant element, it was very much of an upbringing. I remember the late Andy Cameron, the comedian, he came from the Lanarkshire area. I don't know if you knew Andy, but he was a terrific comedian. Rangers supporting comedian. Did a lot of great interfaith work, but Andy made the point, one cabaret I was at with him, but he said, you know, Larkhall and he made the term, Larkhall. If you asked the way to the local hospital, in Larkhall they'll tell you to go to the local bus stop and sing Danny Boy [laughter[. So, it's good to turn these things into comedy, into jokes.

Baroness Hazarika:

Well, there's another funny thing, which is, when my dad was leaving India, he got two job offers. And obviously, he ended up in Lanarkshire, but the other job offer was in Los Angeles, in America. Also known as the Orange County, the OC. But of course the joke was we used to have so many Orange marches where we were in Lanarkshire, he did end up in his own version of the Orange County.

Lord Speaker:

But in a different context.

Baroness Hazarika:

But in a very different context.

Lord Speaker:

But things have improved now enormously, I think. And the point that you made in the different communities, you do find people who reach out to you. Absolutely. And that's your experience of it.

Baroness Hazarika:

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's really important that we call out discrimination, and particularly I would say with my values and the work I've done, it's very important, but I think it's important to call out the negative, but it's also really important to recognise the positive. You shouldn't be always constantly overly negative about society, because there are really great stories as well about integration and friendship and community.

Lord Speaker:

There actually is a negativity about society today, and it's a big issue, particularly for young people, the issue of mental health. And I was just reading in the Financial Times this morning that it's a global issue now. What message do you have for young people in this? How do they stay positive? How do they get to feel that they have a stake in society?

Baroness Hazarika:

It's a great question and it's something that I ponder a lot because I think it's really challenging to be a young person. Look, we're living in a very challenging age. I often think that in the 49 years that I've been on this planet, I've never felt so precarious about global politics, about the climate, about economic factors. There's so many difficult things going on right now. And I think society is in the middle of a very big mental health crisis. I think that's even worse for young people. I do think one thing though that has made things a lot worse for young people, certainly since my time of being young, is social media. I do think that technology can offer some really good things, but I think we have to be really clear-eyed and honest about some of the dangers that it does provide to adults, but particularly young adults, young people and children.

Let's take bullying for example. There's always been bullying at school, but you could often leave the bullying behind when you came home. Now because of our smartphones, you carry it around. In the palm of your hand is the world now, for good and for ill. I think a lot of young people are really pressured in terms of social status, anxiety, the normal things that young people grew up with, but it's made much worse. I think it's really damaging in terms of how children are viewing sexuality at the moment, in terms of pornography, about children becoming sexualized at much earlier age. I think children, both boys and girls are being exposed to violent pornography a lot earlier in life. I think that's distorting what is a good, healthy, normal relationship. I think there's a lot of being seduced into weird parts of the internet where you think you're finding friendship, but actually you're being radicalised.

So, I think there is a lot for young people going on with social media. Add to that, the reality of the financial pressures that a lot of young people... It is now factually true that the metrics are tougher for young people. Just trying to do the right thing, leave school, get a job, go to university or college or get a good trade, being able to get on the housing ladder, have a family, support yourselves. All of these things, which it wasn't like a walk in the park for our generation, but it was achievable for the majority of us. That now feels really difficult for young people.

Also, I think there's a cauldron of different things, which is putting a lot of pressure on young people. My advice to young people is to really think about looking after your mental health. Yes, technology is great in many ways, but do not try to become addicted to it. Be aware of real life as opposed to just this black mirror in the palm of your hand, to make your way in the world to... Because I think the irony about the phone and social media is, you think there's this big world in the palm of your hand, and there is to a certain extent, but it sometimes limits you from actually getting out into the real world, into your community, having conversations with people, doing things like living your life in a more granular real way. So, I think that would be my advice.

And also, I think, going back to what we were talking about earlier, it is very easy to feel very anxious at the moment. I totally get that, and I wouldn't be overly harsh. I have sleepless nights where I'm thinking about the state of everything. It is an anxious time, but try not to become a prisoner of your anxiety. There are lots of good things in the world as well. There's lots of great things to be involved in. And in small ways, you can make a change and you will feel better about yourself if you do get out there and try and participate in the world instead of being frightened and terrified of the world.

But it is a difficult time to be a young person. Look, we sometimes joke about the snowflake generation, and I'm a comedian, I'll make jokes about people like that as well. And sometimes my younger colleagues at work will have a... I'll take the mick out of them. The other day, I was trying to explain who Christopher Biggins was to... Which is a real leveller if you're getting old in the office. But on the whole, I do think young people are trying their best in quite difficult circumstances.

Lord Speaker:

I'll come back to that later on, because it's an important point. But you studied journalism rather than law.

Baroness Hazarika:

I started doing law and then-

Lord Speaker:

Exactly.

Baroness Hazarika:

... I switched to journalism.

Lord Speaker:

And why did you do journalism?

Baroness Hazarika:

Because I just, in my heart of hearts, just didn't want to become a solicitor. My parents were classic Asian mum and dads where they were like, "You can be anything in the world, anything provide it's a doctor, lawyer or an accountant." They're the three things. So I couldn't count. I wasn't very good at maths. I didn't like blood, so I was like, "Fine, I'll do law." That's basically why I ended up doing law. And then I did three years at Hull University and I was just like, there's no way I want to go to the College of Law to get my diploma. So, I had a massive row with my parents who were very disappointed. They're very disappointed that I'm not a doctor, basically and that I've not married a doctor. They're very happy I'm in the House of Lords. That's the only thing that's made up for that. So, Keir Starmer, thank you very much for that.

Although, because Rishi Sunak became Prime Minister, my mum will still say, "Rishi, he became Prime Minister." I'm like, "Okay, mum. I can't actually become Prime Minister now."

Lord Speaker:

You then turned to comedy.

Baroness Hazarika:

Oh, yes.

Lord Speaker:

You went to night school or you went to a course in comedy?

Baroness Hazarika:

I did. I did a course-

Lord Speaker:

It does seem quite a departure. And I thought you were a rather sober-state person, obviously.

Baroness Hazarika:

It's all been a ruse. It's all a ruse, John! So, I was working as a... So, I did this postgraduate journalism diploma in journalism and politics, broadcast journalism and politics, and then I ended up getting a job in the government press office service, the government information and communication service.

There's actually a Coatbridge connection here as well, because I literally had one day in the press office as an admin girl. They were doing an office move, because it was this time when the jobs market wasn't that great. And at the end of the day, I was busy chatting away to everybody, making everyone cups of tea, being as friendly as I could to everybody. And the guy who was the head of the press office at the end of the day said, "Your accent is Scottish. Where are you from?" And I said, "Oh, you'll never know. It's a small town outside Glasgow, called Coatbridge." He's like, "No way." Turned out he was from Coatbridge. And I'm not saying Coatbridge is a small place, but it turns out that the love of his life is the daughter of my piano teacher. So, he ended up basically saying, "Oh, you can come back tomorrow. We'll book you in for tomorrow and the next day and the next day." And then that's basically one of the routes that I ended up... So, the great Coatbridge connection continues.

So, I became a government press officer, which I absolutely loved. It was such an interesting job working in these different government departments. I started off at the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. I then went to the Home Office at a really interesting time. In fact, one of the big things I worked on was the Macpherson inquiry into the way the Metropolitan Police had handled the murder of Stephen Lawrence. And then, I moved to the Department of Trade and Industry, and spent many years there. But I just felt like something was missing in my life, because it was quite serious. It's important, serious, grown up work. And I just felt like life was slightly slipping away from me.

And I remember going out with a friend of mine, and we had a few wines and we were like, "Okay, let's do a bucket list. If you could do anything you wanted, what would it be?" And hers was to be a cabaret singer. And mine was to be a stand-up comedian. And the next day as we were nursing our hangover at work, she came over with a copy of the Evening Standard. She's like, "You're not going to believe it, they're advertising an evening course in stand-up comedy. This is a sign. You have to do it." And I did it, and that's how I got into stand-up comedy.

Lord Speaker:

Yeah. Have you brought your sense of humour into politics. You think it's very important in politics to laugh at yourself?

Baroness Hazarika:

Oh, absolutely. In fact, I think having a very dark sense of humour is a great coping mechanism in politics. Because if you can't see the absurdity in politics and you can't see the black humour in politics. And often there's a lot of gallows humour. Because often in politics you're dealing with a series of things that go wrong rather than a series of things that go right. So, I think having some self-awareness, being able to take the mickey out of yourself before the other side do. And I felt really lucky because with some of my work, particularly doing work on Prime Minister's Questions and writing speeches for political leaders, I was able to bring in some of my humour vicariously through other-

Lord Speaker:

Yeah, you did a book in that, didn't you? Punch and Judy Politics. Yeah.

Baroness Hazarika:

I did.

Lord Speaker:

Give us an insight into that, because you worked for Harriet Harman, the Pink Bus, and then you were chief of staff to Ed Miliband, preparing him for Prime Minister's Questions. People just look at Prime Minister's Questions, because largely, it's nothing other than a Punch and Judy show. But there's a more serious purpose to that behind the scenes, isn't there? So, give us an idea about the behind the scenes element, because that'll be fascinating for people.

Baroness Hazarika:

So, I think Prime Minister's Questions gets a very bad rap, because it does often become quite Punch and Judy, but I think it's a really important function of our democracy, and it's quite a unique thing to our democracy. There are not many democracies around the world where the principal politician in the land is called to the same spot week in, week out, and faces questions on any topic from any Member of Parliament across the country. Sometimes they get an inkling of what the question's going to be, but often the questions come out of nowhere. So it's an important mechanism of accountability. And also, now I know many people might be shouting at the podcast now going, "I know, but they never answer the question." But the principle is there.

I also think that it's an important, I think, test for the Prime Minister and for the leader of the opposition, because ultimately politics is the art of communication. And politics is ultimately about a debate and about debating big ideas, competing ideas. And yes, we live in an age of social media and lots of fancy advertising and stuff, but what I think is really important about PMQs, is there's a purity to it. All of that is stripped away at Prime Minister's Questions. And what it is, is basically one man or woman making the best intellectual, moral, intellectual political argument with their brain, their head, their heart, their voice, their communication skills, their oratory skills. And I think that is really important.

And I think from a leadership point of view, whether you're the Prime Minister or the leader of the opposition, it's important in terms of sending a message out to the public because the press gallery's full and the media cover it a lot. It's often the most covered point of the week in Parliament. But you're also sending an important signal to your own team as well, saying, "Out of all of you, I am making the best case and this is why I'm the leader."

So even though, I know a lot of people don't like it, I think it's a really important thing. And I remember when I interviewed William Hague for our book, and he said, "Ask yourself this question. Would our democracy be better if PMQs was very well-behaved where it was pin drop silence, and we just listened to our political leaders with a deference?" And the answer to that is, no. Yes, it is a bit messy and sometimes it descends into farm yard animal noises and all this kind of thing. But I think it is quite unique in our democracy. And I think our democracy would be poorer if we didn't have PMQs. But I would like to see people raise their game. I would like to see the level of debate be elevated more.

Lord Speaker:

In terms of communication. The communication world is so different now, particularly from the time I was in the House of Commons. And I remember it was said that Neil Kinnock became leader of the Labour Party, because he was good on telly, a great communicator. There's a case for saying now that doesn't apply. It's a different age we're in. What are the qualities a leader of government or opposition has to have today to get to the root of society's issues and engage with people?

Baroness Hazarika:

Gosh, that is a $64 million question, isn't it? I still think being telegenic is really important, and we are moving away from an era where everybody would watch the evening news and that's how they would get their... Social media is, we've discussed social media a lot in this conversation, social media is a really important way of communicating, but the concept is the same. I suppose whether you say someone is telegenic or whether they work on social media, I think you do have to have somebody who can connect with ordinary people, whether that is charisma, whether that is just being a very eloquent, articulate communicator. I think there's something about connection, which is really important. And also, it's quite difficult to fake that connection. I think you have to have just quite a natural raw feel for it. Yes, you can be coached and you can prepare and you can do all the... You can get a nice suit and all that sort of thing, but I think you either have that ability to emote and empathise with people and speak their language.

So, I think that is a really important point. But that's not the only thing you need. I think, to be a good leader, particularly in this day and age... Well, this is what I would hope. I think many people feel this probably hasn't happened of late, because we've had so many different leaders recently. I think what the public are looking for is somebody that can connect with them, but somebody who can also get things done. Because I think what people are really fed up with is people saying, "I'm promising you the moon on a stick," and delivering you nothing but excuses. So, I would say those are the two things that really matter.

But what I find fascinating is the world in which we live at the moment, when you're looking particularly around geopolitics, which is wild at the moment. We're not in an age where people want... People do want a bit of character and they do want, there's this phrase at the moment, the strong man... Which is quite, as somebody who's a feminist, and I would like to see more women in politics, that's quite a gendered thing. But there's clearly a desire right now for quite strong... You look at somebody like, I don't share Trump's politics at all, but even I could tell he was going to win on the run-up to the election, because he's such a strong character. He clearly believes what he says, and he makes people believe in what he's saying. Whether or not he can make any of this stuff happen remains to be seen.

But I think we are living in an age where people do expect our politicians, they want them to feel authentic to them. And that is not about somebody, oh, I can't connect with this person because they're really rich, or I can't connect with this person because they're from a different background. It's something more ephemeral that I think we used to say, "Oh, this person's from this class, so they must connect with this class of people." That's not the case anymore. People are prepared to look at anybody, but they've got to feel that that person's authentic and they've got real strength to them.

Lord Speaker:

As I was sitting in the rules yesterday, observing the questions, you are fortunate to have question number one on antisocial behaviour and shoplifting. And actually, felt that that got to the issue that you're talking about just now, because those were the issues that people were responding to. And that debate in the house from all sides, spoke to that issue. Would you agree that that's the type of stuff we need to talk about?

Baroness Hazarika:

Oh, a 100%. I do feel that one of the reasons why I would say-

Lord Speaker:

Why did you put that question down?

Baroness Hazarika:

Because I see it in my everyday life. So, where I live at the moment in Lambeth, in South London, there is so much shoplifting going on. There is so much antisocial behaviour. In fact, there was a really excellent debate a couple of weeks ago in the Lords... Lord Hannett did a debate on retail crime. And I put my name down to speak at that and I was thinking, "Oh, I must prepare my speech." And I literally went out to get some messages from the local co-op shop and a man walked in, barged past the security guard, went up to the alcohol aisle and just started helping himself to loads of bottles. The security guy tried to challenge him. He got really violent with the security guard, threatened everybody else in the shop and just walked out. And it was such a shocking moment, everybody was really shaken up.

And I asked the security guy, "Are you okay?" And he said, "This happens all the time. I fear for my safety. I fear for the customers. Sometimes there are mums in with their young kids shopping." He was like, "Someone is going to get hurt." And he said, "You know what the worst thing is? This guy comes in pretty much every day, sometimes twice a day, and just helps himself. And there's CCTV and everybody knows who he is and nobody does anything." So, that is why I asked that question, John, because that story is not... That is happening every day on an hourly basis. And I think for a lot of ordinary people when they're going out to do their shopping, if you're working in a shop, if you've got a small business like that, you're just seeing people coming in and filling their boots. It feels like there's a lawlessness. It does feel like it's a bit of a wild west out there. And how can you be teaching our kids that there are rules, and then they're seeing people behave like this?

So, that is one of the reasons why I raised it, and I feel really passionately about it. And I feel like when we have a platform here in the Lords, yes, it's really important to talk about very intellectual issues. And there's a lot of that and that is brilliant, but it's also really important to raise the real life issues that everyday people are talking about and dealing with.

Lord Speaker:

Okay. But the average constituent would say to you, what are you going to do about it? How do you promote a solution to this issue? How do you use your voice to further that agenda?

Baroness Hazarika:

Well, I think -

Lord Speaker:

I know it's a hard question.

Baroness Hazarika:

No, it's a fair question. I think for people in my position, I will try and use whatever platform I have to raise these issues. So on my Times Radio show, I'd cover these issues a lot. I pressed the police minister in the House of Lords, Lord Hanson, yesterday saying, will he ensure that the government and the police are doing more to focus on what is actually a small group of hardened criminals, doing probably the lion's share of this kind of crime? And will they use things like technology, like facial recognition technology and things.

So, we can use our position here to press government ministers and to press the government. And I can use the other platforms I have to raise these issues and get people on. But ultimately, it will come down to... And as you say, it's not easy. It'll come down to government ministers, it'll come down to the police, it comes down to resourcing of the police. It comes down to local authorities. But it also, there's the criminal justice side of it, which I think is really important. I do think we shouldn't have a softy-softy approach.

I don't like calling this low level crime, because I don't think it's low level crime. I really don't. But on the other hand, there's other social things like addiction, homelessness, prostitution, mental health issues. So, you've got to make sure that that side comes in... So, it's a joined up approach. But I think this stuff is not easy, but the more we talk about it and the more we press government ministers, that puts the pressure on them to keep on keeping this a priority.

Lord Speaker:

And community policing, I feel that that has diminished over the years. I was, when I was a youngster, chair of the co-op board for a while, and we had a great chief executive. And he used to come along with reports and tell us, in one shoplifting report, in fact quite a few shoplifting reports said we've had fridges stolen. I couldn't understand how someone stole a fridge and get out it of the shop without anybody seeing it, but maybe you've got an answer to me for that.

Baroness Hazarika:

I love that [laughter].

Lord Speaker:

But at that time, we had traffic wardens there, we had police on the streets. And if we don't have that presence, then I don't think that we can tackle it. Is that fair enough?

Baroness Hazarika:

I totally agree with you. And I've done a lot of work with my local community in Lambeth and in the Brixton area, and we've had big community meetings about this with the police and the local authorities. And it's so interesting, the local residents from every different background, the one thing they say is, "We want to see more police. We want to see more police." And also they want to see police that they recognise, who know the area. Because I think back in the day when there were more police and you had more established neighbourhood police, they knew the families, they knew the communities, they knew the estates, they knew the shopkeepers. So, if the shopkeeper said, "Look, this guy's come in and is causing trouble," they often knew who his family was and all, but we're losing that link. We're losing a lot of that community link.

And I think on the one hand, we're careering ahead with all this new technology and the world is all apps and very exciting developments. But I think what a lot of people want is a return to, I don't want to use the word 'old-fashioned', because that is a bit pejorative, but some kind of common sense, like traditional things that held up our communities as well. You can have all the advancing technology and innovation, that is really important. And if we want to do better in our public services, they do need reform, and technology will be a big part of that. But I think what a lot of people are crying out for is common sense, like human beings being there again, knowing people like the police, like your family doctor. There's some basics in society that I still think we need.

Lord Speaker:

In other words, I think you made the point with your Times Radio shows that you're encouraging conversation rather than confrontation and that empathetic element in conversation, listening to people. Is that what you're getting at here?

Baroness Hazarika:

Yeah, absolutely. And I think we've got to talk about all of these things. And we've also got to, we live in a very polarised age in politics, which everything has become very tribal. And unless we actually sit down and have conversations with people who we have different views from, wisdom, all the solutions don't lie in one political party. All the answers don't lie in one way of thinking. There's lots of contributions to be made across the piece, whether it's crime and justice, whether it's tackling social care.

So, without wanting to be all kumbaya about it, because obviously I understand that the party lines, I do think that one of the things I love doing on my radio show is just getting people from all different walks of life, all different political backgrounds on to talk about, rather than just do the, "Ya, boo," and slagging each other off. There's a space for that, but actually a lot of people are more interested in having a more honest, sometimes a reflective conversation saying, this is what we got wrong. Sometimes some of the most interesting conversations I've had are with people who've recently lost their seats who are saying, "Actually looking back, I think we did get this wrong and I wish we'd done this." Hindsight is a wonderful thing. So, I just think by opening up more of these conversations about solutions, that gives us a better chance of getting to the solutions, because we've got big problems, John, facing us. And we aren't going to solve them unless we do have some element of people coming together.

Lord Speaker:

You say about people losing their seat. I will remember when I stood down in 2010, there was a young, fresh-faced Ayesha Hazarika contacting me, and applied for-

Baroness Hazarika:

You're saying I'm not fresh-faced now?

Lord Speaker:

You're really fresh-faced - you're a spring chicken still [laughter]. But you were a great candidate, and I was told that. I happened to be in Singapore at that time, so I couldn't vote for you.

Baroness Hazarika:

Would you have voted for me?

Lord Speaker:

I am neutral now. But you never pursued that. Why didn't you pursue becoming an MP?

Baroness Hazarika:

So, I tried very hard to get selected in your old seat West Dunbartonshire, and then I did actually try East Dunbartonshire.

Lord Speaker:

You come in too late, that was a problem.

Baroness Hazarika:

I know, I went to everything that had Dunbartonshire on it, if there was a North Dunbartonshire. I also, I tried East Lothian, and then I think I tried a number of times and I felt like I came quite close, but I found it, it knocked the wind out of my sails a bit, if I'm really honest. Because it wasn't like I hadn't tried, I tried many times. And you know that phrase, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and getting the same results. So I thought, the Labour Party, as much as I love it, does not want me to be a candidate.

Now, I think maybe that would've changed if I had... But I enjoyed some of it, but I'll be honest, some of it was quite a bruising experience. And also, I didn't feel I had any real support. So, I was doing it all from a standing start by myself with my dad driving me round, or an old school friend driving me around. And I think my mistake was, I didn't have those big... That infrastructure. I didn't have a big union backing me or I didn't have a... So, I think I just felt like I tried really hard and it just wasn't meant to be.

Lord Speaker:

But you went on to career, it was different. And you mentioned about politics, quite a lot of politics is drudgery and complex, and your time as a SpAd. I would like you to give us an idea of that, because there's a view that SpAds are too powerful. They're the gatekeeper to ministers, and there is a negativity in that, in between the Members of Parliament, even the Cabinet members and the Civil Service. And at times, hard to get access to Downing Street. Is that a fair analysis or is there a real need for SpAds?

Baroness Hazarika:

So, I think that is true of, I think, a small number of SpAds. I think we do need special advisors, and they are an important support system for the Secretary of State, because it's very lonely coming into a big department. And we've just had lots of, our conversation has been, how do you actually get things done? And when you're trying to get things done in a huge department with hundreds, sometimes thousands of people, you need people who are your people around you to be part of your team, to go out and help you achieve that. So, I think special advisors can be a really important practical bridge between the minister and the civil servants. And I think good special advisors can be like the linchpin of making that and good special advisors can facilitate the will of the minister and the will of Downing Street to actually work with the civil servants through the private office to make that happen. So, I think they have a very important function.

But I think what is also true is that quite a lot of power, and this has happened over many decades, quite a small amount of power has become concentrated in the hands of a small number of special advisors in Downing Street. Sometimes the Treasury. Who have become so powerful that they are the real power behind the throne and they actually have way more power and influence than many cabinet ministers. And I think it is right to question, is that the right thing? Because these people are not elected. They're not the people who have to go up on the Today programme. They're not the people who are facing constituents at elections. They often don't have to ever really explain their decisions, and their decisions can have a profound effect on what happens in this country. Just look at somebody like Dominic Cummings for example, in terms of the effect that he had on this country.

So, I think there's a really important role for special advisors, but I do think there should also be a focus on how much power special advisors have and also training special advisors. There's a lot of pressure on special advisors when they come in. Often many of them haven't had a huge amount of experience. I think they need to have better training, they need to be supported. I think there's also a case for bringing in special advisors who maybe have a bit more expertise in that particular discipline to try and help the delivery of policy. So, I would say special advisors are incredibly important. In fact, they're so important. They need a bit more attention and support to make them perform better, but they also, like every other bit of power, they need guardrails.

Lord Speaker:

I had an interview with Lord Sedwill, former Cabinet Secretary, and he made the point about the Civil Service liking strong ministers. And acknowledged that there was a difference in view naturally because it was a politician with a real political view on issues, and the civil servants with their views for the institution and the policy in bridging them. So, I suppose special advisors would be crucial in that area.

Baroness Hazarika:

Definitely. And I had a lot-

Lord Speaker:

Give me an example of a typical role for a special advisor.

Baroness Hazarika:

Definitely. I remember when I was working for Harriet Harman, now and Baroness Harman, and we were working on the Equality Bill, which became the Equality Act 2010. That was a big beast of a piece of legislation. It was a consolidating exercise. But she was also very clear that she wanted to strengthen the Equality Act, which was absolutely the right thing to do. But we found that there was a lot of internal opposition. Not because people were bad people, but it was like, this is 'minister, this is too difficult to do. We've already got so much on our plate. This is already a very big unwieldy bill. We'll have to work cross government. We'll have to get the permission from the Treasury on this. It's not just your decision. We'll have to work with the Business Department, the DWP, the Health Department.' And there was quite a lot of 'computer says no.'

And that is a very good example of where Harriet Harman, the other ministers at the time, but myself as the lead special advisor, really did spend a huge amount of time really working with the civil servants, persuading them of why this was so important and saying, "Look, if we don't strengthen this bill and if we don't get these additional things, we're going to miss out on a really big opportunity to do some really good work here. Work that you'll feel really proud to be associated with." And we try to, instead of just telling them off or having conflict, we try to understand why they were resistant. And it came to pass that the reason why they were resistant is that they were worried that they were just going to get blocked from other departments. So we said to them, "Look, we'll help you so that you're not just going in and doing battle the whole time. We will completely put our shoulder to the wheel."

So, I will spend a huge amount of my time lobbying the special advisors who are my opposite numbers in Downing Street, in the Treasury, in the Business Department, in DWP. Harriet and the other ministers will spend a huge amount of their own personal time lobbying different ministers. Harriet took it right to Gordon Brown, who was then the Prime Minister.

So, I think by making us all feel like we were part of this team and we were questing for something that was really important, the resistance fell away. And in the end, we did get this brilliant piece of legislation, which did much more than consolidate. It really strengthened the law. It's a really enduring piece of legislation that I and many others are really proud of. And to this day, I'm still in touch with those civil servants. We became a great team. And they say to me, 'that piece of legislation helped me then get a really good promotion in the next job I did. And I'm really proud of that piece of legislation.'

So, I think there is a way of bringing people together. If you bring people, if you bring the civil servants with you, yes, you can always have conflict. There will always be a bit of 'Yes Minister' pushing back on the Civil Service, pushing back on you. But you as a skilled special advisor and as a good minister should find ways to persuade and bring people with you.

Lord Speaker:

You mentioned about the issue of technology and skills and the need for more expertise there, but what do politicians need to do to ensure that we reach out to different parts of the country? We have good devolution for Scotland and Wales, but we need to take that much further. And I've always had the view, particularly fostered with the fact there'd been a constituency MP near Glasgow that I know better than the people in the national institutions, because I live in the community and understand it. So, how can we devolve decision making, and accountability and transparency at the same time? What's your views as to the way forward there?

Baroness Hazarika:

I think that's a really important thing that we have to do. We have a very over-centralised way of making decisions and doing government. And I have a podcast that I do, called The Power Test with a really smart guy-

Lord Speaker:

Sam Freedman.

Baroness Hazarika:

... called Sam Freedman.

Lord Speaker:

Yeah, I listen to it.

Baroness Hazarika:

Oh, thank you very much. And he and I discuss this a lot. We discuss-

Lord Speaker:

He wrote a great book as well.

Baroness Hazarika:

Yeah, Failed State. And it's all about how to make Whitehall better and devolve proper power in decision making. And I think this is really important. And the government has been doing a lot of thinking about this, and we already are starting to see some changes. One of the very positive developments I think in, I suppose local government architecture is the creation of these regional mayors, which I think are a really good addition to politics. But they do have to be given more power and more ability, because just as you say, as a constituency MP you know your area best. These mayors have got a very good idea about, they've got a good bird's eye view of what's happening in their areas.

So, I think Whitehall has got to be prepared to devolve more. But, this is a big but though, I don't think Whitehall... I don't think you should... And this is an argument I have with Sam Freedman a lot. I don't think Westminster and ministers can't just wash their hands of decisions and just say, "Right, off to the regions to solve this." I think they have to basically let the expertise come from the regions, but they have to have an oversight over those things as well, because one-

Lord Speaker:

There was accountability.

Baroness Hazarika:

Absolutely. Because I think sometimes... ordinary people don't care about devolution. I did a conference recently about this, and there was a lot of chat about mayors and devolution, and how you move power away from Whitehall. And I made the point at the end of the discussion that I felt it was a really interesting discussion, but I felt we were getting way too nerdy about it. We were all getting very excited about graphs and flow charts, and organograms. But I'm seeing at the end of the day, your average man or woman on the street, going right back to our shoplifting story. They don't care what the power structure is. They just want that not to happen again. They want a police officer to come round to their house if they've burgled. They'd ideally like to not be burgled for the third time this year. So, all of that devolution stuff is important, but devolution is not an end in itself. It is a means to an end, and that end is better outcomes for just ordinary people.

Lord Speaker:

Good. Your comedy act and sense of humour, is sense of humour important in politics? And also, what role does culture play in politics?

Baroness Hazarika:

Two great questions. I think a sense of humour is so important in politics. I think the worst politics is when people are humourless and po-faced, and they can't take a joke and they can't make a joke about someone else, and they can't make a joke about themselves.

Lord Speaker:

When I was MP at the beginning, I felt I had to know everything and I never owned up. And the most joyous period for me was just before I stood down when people would come at my constituency saying they asked me something. And I said, "I don't know." [Laughter]

Baroness Hazarika:

Did you feel that was really liberating?

Lord Speaker:

That was liberating. But the point is, there's lots we don't know and maybe we're a bit too proud to have that at times.

Baroness Hazarika:

Yeah, definitely. And I think as well, you're talking about the culture of politics. I do think there's a great... Politics is still, as Tony Blair said, in his final time at the despatch box, is the pursuit of noble intentions. And of course, there is a lot of skullduggery with it, and it should be the pursuit of noble intentions. And I do believe that people from all different political parties come into politics for the right reasons. But we also have to be honest, John, our collective reputation is in the toilet right now.

Lord Speaker:

Absolutely.

Baroness Hazarika:

Politics and trust in politics has never been lower. So, we do have to think about that. We've got to think about how we conduct ourselves. Sometimes I think politicians can really come across as quite arrogant which is, 'I do know it all, and-

Lord Speaker:

Absolutely.

Baroness Hazarika:

... I can do no wrong and I've never done anything wrong.' And sometimes a wee bit of humility can go a long way. A bit of humour and humility, I think, can go a long way in politics.

Lord Speaker:

Absolutely. And how will you use your position, this elevated position that you now have in the House of Lords?

Baroness Hazarika:

I really hope to do some good and to use it as a platform to talk about the issues that we've been discussing today and to talk about the issues that I know my listeners from my radio show really care about. And also, John, one of the... And it's a great privilege and blessing for me, is that a lot of people see me on the telly or they hear me on the radio talking about politics. And they clearly think I'm quite approachable, because people stop me all the time on the street, when I'm on the trains or buses, or whatever, and want to have a chat. And I love those conversations with people.

And often people are just raising really... And they're like, "Why are people not talking about this?" And I think they're the things that I would like to use this as a platform. I've taken parts in debates on domestic violence. I've done a number of debates on shoplifting, retail crime. I'm trying to get a debate raised about the situation for child maintenance service, because I know a lot of women have got in contact with me, and they're single mums, they're really struggling. There's so many things that are not working in society right now. And I think, I'd like to be able to use my platform here to give a voice to some of those issues and shine a bit of a light on those issues.

Lord Speaker:

Ayesha, it's been a real pleasure to talk to you and great to get the feel of how you're going to approach the House of Lords, and the need to have results and engage in conversation rather than confrontation. So, thank you very much. It's been a privilege for me.

Baroness Hazarika:

And me. I've so enjoyed our chat. Thank you.