Formal Minutes

Wednesday 8 October 2008

Members present:

Michael Connarty, in the Chair
Mr Adrian Bailey
Mr David S Borrow
Mr William Cash
Mr James Clappison
Ms Katy Clark
Jim Dobbin
Mr Greg Hands
Mr David Heathcoat-Amory
Keith Hill
Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Lindsay Hoyle
Mr Anthony Steen
Mr Richard Younger-Ross

1. Private Deliberative Session

2. Draft report on Subsidiarity, National Parliaments and the Lisbon Treaty.

The Committee deliberated.

Motion made and question put, that the Committee consider Mr Cash's draft Report (subsidiarity) prior to the Committee's public session on the scrutiny of documents.€” ( The Chairman.)

The Committee divided.

Ayes, 6

Noes, 6

Mr Adrian Bailey

Mr William Cash

Mr David S Borrow

Mr James Clappison

Mr Jim Dobbin

Mr Greg Hands

Keith Hill

Mr David Heathcoat-Amory

Kelvin Hopkins

Mr Anthony Steen

Mr Lindsay Hoyle

Richard Younger-Ross

Whereupon the Chairman declared himself with the Ayes.

Motion made and question put, that Mr Cash's draft Report (subsidiarity) be not further considered.€” ( The Chairman.)

The Committee divided.

Ayes, 8

Noes, 4

Mr Adrian Bailey

Mr William Cash

Mr David S Borrow

Mr James Clappison

Ms Katy Clark

Mr Greg Hands

Jim Dobbin

Mr David Heathcoat-Amory

Keith Hill

Kelvin Hopkins

Mr Lindsay Hoyle

Richard Younger-Ross

Draft Report (Subsidiarity, national parliaments and the Lisbon Treaty), proposed by the Chairman, brought up and read.

Ordered, That the draft Report be read a second time, paragraph by paragraph.

Paragraphs 1 to 17 read and agreed to.

A paragraph €” ( Mr David Heathcoat-Amory.) €” brought up, read the first and second time and inserted (now paragraph 18).

Paragraphs 18 to 25 (now paragraphs 19 to 26) read and agreed to.

Paragraph 26 (now paragraph 27) read.

Amendment proposed in line 6, at the end to add the words "generally speaking subsidiarity has never been applied since the Maastricht Treaty."€” ( Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Ammendment be made.

Ayes, 4

Noes, 8

Mr William Cash

Mr Adrian Bailey

Mr James Clappison

Mr David S Borrow

Mr Greg Hands

Ms Katy Clark

Mr David Heathcoat-Amory

Jim Dobbin

Keith Hill

Kelvin Hopkins

Mr Lindsay Hoyle

Richard Younger-Ross

Paragraph 27 (now paragraph 28) agreed to.

Paragraph 28 (now paragraph 29) read.

Amendment proposed in line 1, to leave out the word "very".€” (Mr Richard Younger-Ross.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided.

Ayes, 5

Noes, 6

Mr William Cash

Mr Adrian Bailey

Mr Greg Hands

Mr David S Borrow

Mr David Heathcoat-Amory

Ms Katy Clark

Kelvin Hopkins

Jim Dobbin

Richard Younger-Ross

Keith Hill

Mr Lindsay Hoyle

Amendment proposed in line 1, to leave out from the beginning to "For" in line 3 and to insert the words "It is not uncommon for at least one or more provisions of legislation to be clearly in breach of subsidiarity on any interpretation of the principle of subsidiarity".€” ( Mr James Clappison.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided.

Ayes, 5

Noes, 5

Mr William Cash

Mr Adrian Bailey

Mr James Clappison

Mr David S Borrow

Mr Greg Hands

Ms Katy Clark

Mr David Heathcoat-Amory

Jim Dobbin

Richard Younger-Ross

Keith Hill

Whereupon the Chairman declared himself with the Noes.

Another amendment made.

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to.

Paragraphs 29 to 31 (now paragraphs 30 to 32) agreed to.

Paragraph 32 (now paragraph 33)  read.

Amendment proposed, in line 5, at the end to add “We are deeply disturbed by this.”- ( Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided.

Ayes, 5

Noes, 5

Mr William Cash

Mr Adrian Bailey

Mr James Clappison

Mr David S Borrow

Mr Greg Hands

Jim Dobbin

Mr David Heathcoat-Amory

Keith Hill

Richard Younger-Ross

Mr Lindsay Hoyle

Whereupon the Chairman declared himself with the Noes.

Paragraph 33 (now paragraph 34) read.

Amendment proposed, in line 1, to leave out the words “We do not see this as a major defect because” and to insert the words “Some may argue that:” - (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided.

Ayes, 6

Noes, 5

Mr William Cash

Mr Adrian Bailey

Mr James Clappison

Mr David S Borrow

Mr Greg Hands

Jim Dobbin

Mr David Heathcoat-Amory

Keith Hill

Kelvin Hopkins

Mr Lindsay Hoyle

Richard Younger-Ross

 

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to.

A paragraph - ( Mr David Heathcoat-Amory.) - brought up, read the first and second time and inserted (now paragraph 35).

Another paragraph €” ( Mr David Heathcoat-Amory.) €” brought up, read the first and second time and inserted (now paragraph 36).

Paragraph 34 (now paragraph 37) read.

An amendment made.

Another amendment made.

Amendment proposed, line 23, at the to end add "We are not remotely convinced that this will happen." €”(Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided.

Ayes, 4

Noes, 7

Mr William Cash

Mr Adrian Bailey

Mr James Clappison

Mr David S Borrow

Mr Greg Hands

Ms Katy Clark

Mr David Heathcoat-Amory

Jim Dobbin

Keith Hill

Kelvin Hopkins

Richard Younger-Ross

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to.

Paragraphs 35 to 39 (now paragraphs 38 to 42) read and agreed to.

Paragraph 40 (now paragraph 43) read, amended and agreed to.

Paragraph 41 (now paragraph 44) agreed to.

Paragraph 42 (now paragraph 45) read.

Amendment proposed, in line 18, at the end to add "We believe that where 150 MPs sign a Motion objecting to an EU legislative proposal, the House must hold a free vote on the matter before it goes to the Council and that standing orders should be amended accordingly."€” (Mr. William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided.

Ayes, 5

Noes, 5

Mr William Cash

Mr Adrian Bailey

Mr James Clappison

Mr David S Borrow

Ms Katy Clark

Jim Dobbin

Mr Greg Hands

Keith Hill

Mr David Heathcoat-Amory

Kelvin Hopkins

Whereupon the Chairman declared himself with the Noes.

Paragraph agreed to.

Paragraphs 43 to 51 (now paragraphs 46 to 54) read and agreed to.

Paragraph 52 (now paragraph 55) read.

Amendment proposed, in line 1 to leave out from beginning to "If" in line 2 and insert the words "The definition of criminal law and procedure, the bringing of prosecutions and the administration of justice are all matters which should be determined solely at a national level. We note the vagueness of the definitions of the roles of Europol and, in particular, Eurojust and the uncertainties over their constitutional arrangements regarding them outlined above. We therefore believe it is important to be vigilant as to the risk that these European level organisations which have been established to promote co-operation do not evolve in a way which leads to trespass into areas which should remain ones of exclusive national competence."€” ( Mr James Clappison.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided

Ayes, 5

Noes, 5

Mr William Cash

Mr Adrian Bailey

Mr James Clappison

Mr David S Borrow

Mr Greg Hands

Ms Katy Clark

Kelvin Hopkins

Jim Dobbin

Richard Younger-Ross

Keith Hill

Whereupon the Chairman declared himself with the Noes.

Paragraph agreed to.

Paragraphs 53 to 60 (now paragraphs 56 to 63) agreed to.

Paragraph 61 (now paragraph 64) read.

Amendment proposed, in line 2 to leave out from the word "process" to the end of the paragraph and to insert the words "We need rigorous scrutiny of opt-in decisions both in respect of the opt-in arrangements which already apply to significant areas of asylum and immigration and judicial cooperation in civil matters and, in the event that the Lisbon Treaty comes into force, in respect of the potentially weighty matters which may be subject to opt-in decisions under the new arrangements in the Treaty. We are particularly concerned that the Government's 'Statement on JHA opt-ins' permits opt-in without any scrutiny where the Government decides that an earlier opt-in decision is necessary and that where scrutiny does take place any debate would be confined to a Committee; we feel that it would be more appropriate for such a debate to take place on the Floor of the House. In these and other respects we feel that careful consideration needs to be given to the adequacy of the Government's proposals for scrutiny of opt-in decisions".€” ( Mr James Clappison.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided

Ayes,5

Noes, 6

Mr William Cash

Mr Adrian Bailey

Mr James Clappison

Mr David S Borrow

Mr Greg Hands

Ms Katy Clark

Mr David Heathcoat-Amory

Jim Dobbin

Kelvin Hopkins

Keith Hill

Richard Younger-Ross

Another amendment proposed, in line 6, at the end to add "We insist that the Government's commitments are carried through and that this whole issue must be debated on a free vote on the floor of the House." €” (Mr. William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided.

Ayes, 4

Noes, 5

Mr William Cash

Mr Adrian Bailey

Mr James Clappison

Mr David S Borrow

Mr Greg Hands

Jim Dobbin

Mr David Heathcoat-Amory

Keith Hill

Kelvin Hopkins

Paragraph agreed to.

Resolved, That the Report, as amended, be the Thirty-third Report of the Committee to the House.

Ordered, That the Chairman do make the Report to the House.

Several Memoranda were ordered to be reported to the House for printing with the Report.

Ordered, That the provisions of Standing Order No.134 (Select committees (reports)) be applied to the Report.

3. The Committee met in public for the scrutiny of documents

Draft Report, proposed by the Chairman, brought up and read.

Ordered, That the draft Report be read a second time, paragraph by paragraph.

Paragraphs 1.1 to 9.10 read and agreed to.

Paragraph 10, Headnote read. Amendment proposed in line 10, to leave out the word "Cleared", and to insert the words "For debate in European Committee". €” ( Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided.

Ayes, 2

Noes, 3

Mr William Cash

Jim Dobbin

Mr James Clappison

Keith Hill

Kelvin Hopkins

Headnote agreed to.

Paragraphs 10.1 to 15.6 read and agreed to.

Paragraph 16, Headnote read. Amendment proposed in line 11, to leave out the word "Cleared", and to insert the words "For debate in European Committee". €” ( Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided

Ayes, 2

Noes, 4

Mr William Cash

Jim Dobbin

Mr James Clappison

Mr Greg Hands

Keith Hill

Kelvin Hopkins

Headnote agreed to.

Paragraphs 16.1 to 17.17 read and agreed to.

Paragraph 18, Headnote read. Amendment proposed in line 9, to leave out the words "Cleared, but further information requested", and to insert the words "For debate in European Committee". €” (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided.

Ayes, 2

Noes, 4

M rWilliam cash

Jim Dobbin

Mr James Clappison

Mr Greg Hands

Keith Hill

Kelvin Hopkins

Headnote agreed to.

Paragraphs 18.1 to 19.12 read and agreed to.

Paragraph 20, Headnote read. Amendment proposed in line 8, to leave out the words "Cleared, but further information requested", and to insert the words "For debate in European Committee". €” ( Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

Ayes, 2

Noes,4

Mr William Cash

Jim Dobbin

Mr James Clappison

Mr Greg Hands

Keith Hill

Kelvin Hopkins

Headnote agreed to.

Paragraphs 20.1 to 20.14 read and agreed to.

Paragraph 21, Headnote read. Amendment proposed in line 9, to leave out the words "Cleared, but further information requested", and to insert the words "For debate in European Committee". €” ( Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided.

Ayes, 1

Noes, 4

Mr William Cash

Jim Dobbin

Mr Greg Hands

Keith Hill

Kelvin Hopkins

Headnote agreed to.

Paragraphs 21.1 to 23.11 read and agreed to.

Paragraph 24 read. Amendment proposed, to leave out lines 89 and 90. €” (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided.

Ayes, 3

Noes, 3

Mr William Cash

Jim Dobbin

Mr James Clappison

Keith Hill

Mr Greg Hands

Kelvin Hopkins

Whereupon the Chairman declared himself with the Noes.

Another Amendment proposed, to leave out lines 91 to 94. €” ( Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided.

Ayes, 2

Noes, 4

Mr William Cash

Jim Dobbin

Mr James Clappison

Mr Greg Hands

Keith Hill

Kelvin Hopkins

Paragraph agreed to.

Resolved, That the Report be the Thirty-fourth Report of the Committee to the House.

Ordered, That the Chairman make the Report to the House.

[Adjourned till Wednesday 15 October at 2.30 p.m.